Re: Can't change lead into gold (peerages) ALAS LONG

["Chuck Graves" <chuck_graves@mail.hq.faa.gov>]

According to Leifr:
     
>I've answered the point about universality elsewhere. 

No, Leifr. You've ignored the point about universality elsewhere...and 
repeatedly. And more than that, you've managed to tell several VERY experienced 
folks that THEY were simply wrong. I'll takectheir forty plus years in the SCA 
over your four (you're estimate as I recall) any day.

>When you put it that way, I think they are shirking duties, especially 
>the Chivalry, but that's a long arguement.

I believe you should rephrase that: "They're shirking what Leifr 
believes to be their duties".

>Tahdg, I would like at this time for you to list the peer qualities 
>which a person cannot acquire from being in the Society.  I always 
>thought the Society was about encouraging courtesy and chivalry and 
>other virtues honoured in the middle ages which are not as often 
>practiced now.  

I'll be happy to...of course, you've already raised them to some extent: 
Courtesy, Honor, and Courage. Mark this well--Three Personal Qualities of 
a Peer--Innate characteristics. The Society encourages their DISPLAY and 
OPEN EXERCISE. Don't confuse courtesy and social skills. The former is a 
matter of character; the latter is a matter of training and environment. 
With regard to Honor and Courage, I could write a veritable thesis on 
what I believe those entail. However, the Merry Rose has no pulpit as the 
topic deserves. Suffice it to say--in my opinion--a person has these 
qualities or has them not. They are woven in the fabric of their being. 
What can be taught to gentles is how to SHOW themselves. You may have 
heard "Not to hide your light under a basket." The Society does NOT 
create the light, but it may remove the basket.

>Then I would like you to list everyone you've known for over two years 
>in the Society who is this "lead"of which you speak, and tell me why 
>they will never be peers.  

Momma didn't raise no fool...and I prefer to RETURN insults and bad 
manners ("Postage due" don't you know).

>Inversely, since every candidate on the orders watch 
>lists must be "gold", why are these noble individuals not automatically made 
>peers?

[Refer to baskets...some are heavier than others]
     
>Lord Siguard tells a wonderful story about Duke Roland.  It seems that in 
>his first year in the SCA, Roland went to a fighter practice where they 
>had a melee.  The team leaders picked their teams, and Roland was the last 
>person left to be chosen.  One team leader offered to the other one of his 
>already chosen men, if the other would takecRoland.  Is it any surprise 
>that Duke Sir Roland, after winning crown and being knighted, hunted down 
>that team leader and made his life as miserable as possible as often as he 
>could?
     
Leifr please thank Lord Siguard for a story of how a duke should NOT 
behave. The team leader proved himself to be quite rude--and certainly 
owed Roland an apology. And Roland made up for it by being RUDER "as 
often as he could". If this is a "wonderful story" to you, Leifr, you 
are walking on a road of lead.

>I hope nobody else uses your extreme definition of this "WecRecognize 
>Peers" philosophy, because it seems that you are inherently insulting 
>everyone who you do not currently regard as a viable candidate for the 
>peerage.

Read the posts..."nobody" is writing from a multitude of places and 
under a host of names...and the peers I recognize aren't known for 
insults.
  
>Sorry, I think of the Society as a Meritocracy, because Meritocracies 
>work.  I don't know what your model is, but it sound awfully like a 
>oligarchy.  As for privilegdes, see my reply to Mistress Keilyn.

That's interesting...the Society is a Meritocracy, it does work--and 
that's the point I've been making all along. Thanks for the concession.

As for 'bashing' teachers who takecstudents, I will offer two specific 
and one group example. Baron Heinrich (Bright Hills) takes armoring 
students--I should know, I'm one of them. I don't see him getting 
bashed for his students. Myself--I have lots of students--in at least 
two kingdoms--they include Barons, Knights, and Laurels. Nobody is 
bashing me that I've seen. The group example is all the teachers of the 
University of Atlantia. WE takeclots of students--5 to 50 at a 
time--and they thank us for what we teach. But you should know that-- 
you've been an instructor yourself.

At this, I shall leave off. I've fallen in the teapot and should get 
myself out. I believe my points have been made and soundly supported... 
it remains to Leifr whether they will be heeded.

Fair travel,
Tadhg