Re: Cloved Fruit and the SCA

["Jason & Shannon Smith" <srgiles@erols.com>]

Poster: "Jason & Shannon Smith" <srgiles@erols.com>

Greetings All!

>
>I was always taught that the lady had the control in the situation and
>could offer her hand to be kissed, or even just thank whoever presented
>her with the fruit for the courtesy with a a gracious curtsy.  If it's
>someone's first event, that means they have the best reason in the world
>to stop and ask what this cloved fruit thing is all about.

Yes it would stand to reason. But, not everyone is going to be that
comfortable to ask.  It is a sad fact that people will do as they see others
doing.  Sure it would be a great idea if... but is this 'if' worth it?

>Actually, all it means is that his lady's beauty attracts all manner of
>worship, and he should be proud, and do his lady the courtesy of backing
>up her choice in how to handle the situation.

Well that is certainly one way to see it.  But it is still wrong in my eyes.
If a lord does intend to show "worship" or "appreciating beauty", a properly
phrased compliment achieves the proper end of which you speak.  It takes
intelligence and forethought to give a proper compliment, cloved fruit can
be used by anyone.

The cloved fruit quenches the prurient interest of the presenter. Period.
There is no compliment befitting a lady to be had with cloved fruit.


>
>I don't see how it degrades women or is immoral.....that escapes me.

It is immoral if someone thinks that is ok to kiss my wife just because they
have presented her with a cloved fruit.  It degrades her because this person
is seeing her as a thing to fulfill his desires.  If the purpose is not to
fulfill his desire to kiss her or to come in physical contact with her, then
why present it??

This is why it is degrading and immoral.

>Frankly, I just see it as I do all other sorts of Victorian-style
>kissing games.  Do kisses under mistletoe upset you equally?

If the person in question is carrying around a bag of mistletoe at a party
so they can kiss a multitude of people, yes.

If the kiss is delivered to an unwilling person, yes.

If a person does not understand the tradition, but participates because they
see others doing it and feel social pressure to do it, yes.

If it is two people who want to engage in the act, no.


>what of the lord who is offered a fruit but has no desire to kiss the
>lady who has offered it?  Is it equally degrading to him in your eyes?

Yep.  I've personally been in this situation.  I can only imagine how like a
piece of meat in a market some women must feel around men who cannot control
themselves.

>I would think he has the equal opportunity to kiss the lady's hand or
>just thank her for the courtesy.

It is not based on courtesy in my eyes.  If courtesy is practiced to achieve
personal fulfillment, instead of showing people respect of the sake if it,
then it is not courtesy.  Courtesy should not be practiced for the primary
reason of making you feel good.  That is being narcissistic, not being
courteous.

>
>I think the main thing to keep in mind is that this cloved fruit
>business is just a Victorian-style ice-breaking sort of kissing game,
>and like any game you can refuse to play.


So what place does a Victorian game have in a group that studies the middle
ages??

Andrew

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