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Re: Response to Proposed IAC Banishment Change

On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Lisa Steele wrote:

> > Well, perhaps the medieval sovereign didn't need to cope with an 
> > independent bureaucracy per se, but almost all of our kingdom-level 
> > officers are derived from medieval royal administration.  And the 
> > individuals who made up the royal administrations in the Middle Ages were 
> > uniformly drawn from the landed nobility of the kingdom
>  Demonstrably untrue. Take as but one example Jacques Coeur (15C France) 
> who rose to great prominance and was but a mere merchant. The situation 
> is even more stark in Norman Sicily (tho. Italy is an exception to nearly 
> every medieval generality)

Not so.  Yes, individuals (like Jacques Coeur) might rise to great 
prominence, but keep in mind that he (a) is a late example and (b) is an 
exception - a remarkable exception - not the rule.

> > offices were also hereditary, and jealously guarded by the landed 
> > families who held them.
>   The offices were _at times_ considered hereditary rights, but the major 
> royal reformers including Philippe II Auguste and St. Louis rooted out 
> those who did not do their jobs and made it a point to keep people from 
> getting too comfortable (and thus too corrupt) in one post.

Well, again, we are looking here at exceptions.  Both Philippe Auguste 
and Louis IX were unusually strong monarchs, especially for France.  Both 
the Counts of Flanders and the Dukes of Burgundy held various hereditary 
priviliges and offices which they continued to exercise despite their 
usually adversarial positions to the crown.  The Dukes of Burgundy were 
even jealous of their hereditary privilege of carving the King's meat at 
banquets.  I believe there was some uproar when that particular privilege 
was given to another at one feast.  

My lady, while this has been a stimulating discussion, I think it is 
clear that we are not going to see eye to eye on this issue, and I think 
it is therefore time to end this conversation.#

In service,
Stephanie M. Thorson			*  SCA: Lady Alianora Munro
University of St Andrews		*  
St Andrews, Scotland			*  Clan White Wing
email smt2@st-andrews.ac.uk		*  Tarkhan, Khanate Red Lion