[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index][Author Index][Search Archives]

Re: Query re: A&S/heraldry comp at Pointless

Poster: "Thorpe, John" <thorpj@caepo1.columbiaSC.NCR.COM>

Greetings from Eldred!

Who's got the soapbox?  Ah!  There it is....<drag, drag, drag>  <Eldred
sits in a tall chair and props his feet up on the soapbox>

%Neried herald wrote:
%>  Displaying unregistered armory in the SCA is definitely frowned upon. 
%>  an example of why, imagine the situation I witnessed at Pennsic.  Set up
%>  across  from our camp was an enormous banner, displaying a quite
%>  handsome device.  However, it was quickly recognized as being
%>  registered to a peer of the East Kingdom (I think) and brought to the
%>  attention of the members of that encampment.  Requests that they cease
%>  and desist use of someone else's arms  were ignored and the banner
%>  flew throughout the event.  This brought great distress to the 
%>  owner and his companions, but little could be done, short of calling 
%>  their Crown to correct the behaviour.

How were the requests phrased?  "Hey!  You can't fly those arms!  They
don't belong to you!  Take them down at once!"  Or was it more like:
"Excuse me my lord, but you seem to be displaying the arms of Duke
Soandsuch.  Is he in residence here?  Oh, this is not his camp?  I suggest
that you not display the Duke's arms then, as it causes confusion for
those in search of His Grace."  I'm pretty sure the former type of request
would be met with "Make me."

Scripsit Tibor:
%On the other hand, this sort of problem was period, and was resolved in
%period, in period ways.  We could do the same.  Sometimes, the problem
%was considered no problem at all.

True.  But I really doubt if we should hold heraldry courts a' la Lord 
Court (Scots Heraldry for those of you without a program) and fine people
for violating the codes and statues of heraldry.  Also in this particular
instance, asking that the "offending" party place a bar over the arms to
differentiate them obviously would not have worked.  Challenging the
individuals to a duel over the right to fly the banner seems equally
unlikely.  Nope, have the Crown intercede and be done with it.  See my
next remarks to clarify my position.

%The "distress" here was caused by the Society mis-educating the various 
%involved.  Armory was not unique in period, and was not expected to be, 
%within very small jurisdictions.

%There is no one in the Society with the rights to tell you what arms to 
%or not to bear.  Only social pressures: not that those are inconsiderable.

*Sigh*  I was wondering when this problem would crop up.  Someone
displays the SCA-registered armory that belongs to another person.
Tibor, we all know that SCA armory does not model period armory very
well.  At best it is a pale shadow of mixed styles and jurisdictions that we
have manipulated to fit our idea of the Middle Ages.

Now, I agree with your points about armory.  However, until the College of
Arms changes its policies (unlikely), we still need to have a mechanism
in place to resolve problems of this nature.  An interesting point to bring
up here is that when a person receives an Award of Arms or any other
armigerious award, the Crown grants the use of Arms to an individual,
specifically, those that the person has registered with the SCA CoA.
Usually, an injunction of "without let or hinderance" is included in the
text.  In my view (and apparently a good portion of the SCA) this
directive from the Crown pretty much says that the individual
awarded the right to bear those arms is the only one--across all the
Kingdoms.  This means that if someone inappropriately displays
arms not belonging to them, then they are in violation of the Crown's
Word--and therefore subject to a Court of Chivalry for treason....
Admittedly, this is taking matters to the extreme, but I really wanted to
emphasize my point.

%>  Granted, I bring this forth kind of secondhand, but the lesson is clear.
%>  When you display unregistered armory, you risk using something that 
%>  else has gone to the trouble to register as their own.  It is basically 
%>  same idea as using someone else's social security number or identity in 
%>  real world.  Both are hurtful and unworthy of a courteous society.

%Another example of teaching modern Societal falsehoods over period truths.

Hmmm.  Boss, I think you may be stretching things a bit there with your
analogy(then again, I am guilty of the same), but the underlying principle
is the same.  By displaying someone else's armory, you are erroneously
identifying yourself as that person.  In the context of the SCA, this 
actually harm anyone unless you do something vile and people associate
the arms you bear with the wrong person.  In the "real world" using 
SSN has definitely more opportunity to be harmful--that's why it's a federal 
I definitely agree that bearing someone else's arms is unworthy of anyone
within the context of our SCA lives.  Until the SCA revamps it's structure
and policies, I will continue to follow the rules that we have set forth for 

Tibor, your response to this last part does not make sense.  Nothing
Rhiannon said was false.  The SCA does not model period armory--
most people are aware of this.  If heralds are out there saying that
we do model period armory, then they are telling falsehoods.  Rhiannon
stated how SCA armory works, nothing more.  You are getting too
emotional in your stance against the College of Arms.  Have some
of this mead to calm you down....

<Eldred leans back takes a pull of mead from his tankard and waits....>

In service,
Eldred AElfwald
Nottinghill Coill Pursuivant
and Neutral Minion(tm)
List Archives, FAQ, FTP:  http://sca.wayfarer.org/merryrose/
            Submissions:  atlantia@atlantia.sca.org
        Admin. requests:  majordomo@atlantia.sca.org