Re: Law of Arms, was something about Pointless

[Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>]

Poster: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>

I wrote:
  > Ahh, but which illusion?  The illusion of ownership of armory?

Pedro answered:
  If ownership of armory is an illusion, whence came all those
  lawsuits at the Court of Lord Lyon, of the Earl Marshal, and
  several lesser known tribunals?

It was an unfortunate elision of words on my part.  I meant to say the
illusion of exclusive ownership of armory.

I don't doubt that, in period, sometimes, the ownership of arms would be
disputed.  That would be counterfactual.  But the dispute was not always
clearcut, nor were the decisions uniform.

That is part of the fun!  If we stopped believing that each of us was
entitled to arms as if they came from divine right, we could learn more
about history, and do more fun things with history.  Wouldn't that be good?

           Tibor, and you, my fellows in the College, I speak of De
  Bado Aureo, Strangways, and Ferne, as well as the much-debated
  proclamation of Henry V after Agincourt, which Velde and others
  take to interpret one way, but the Latin is clear.

Gentle friends, if you ever want to watch angels pair off to dance on a pin,
ask Francois Velde about this proclamation....

  > I have some of the most fun I can have in the Society, when I can act as a
  > period herald acted.  Resolving such disputes in a peaceful and period style
  > manner seems to me to be the ultimate fun,
  
  I agree. IMO, heralds aren't asked in the SCA to act in their
  role of mediators as they would have in period, and I'd love to
  try my hand at it.

So, let us set the stage for it!
  
  > Let's check a few other pages, the first 10 arms:  I find that somewhere
  > between one half to one third of these random arms have multiple holders.
  
  My guess is that they're not in the same shires, yes? There's
  some talk about Carminow v. Scrope in which the Carminows'
  advocate notes that Cornwall was once a separate kingdom, and
  hence its own heraldic jurisdiction, as, indeed, many of the
  shires were. Still, I'd love to learn more.

Given the high (sniff) quality of Papworth's research, and the clarity of
his recording, it would be hard to say.  Certainly, most of them were in
separate shires.

Hey, gang, do you know about Scrope v. Grosvenor and Scrope v. Carminow?
The same fellow charged two different people with usurping his arms.  He won
over Grosvenor, and he lost over Carminow, because Carminow was from too far
away.

And, for clarities sake, the term shire as Pedro and I (and historians)
would use it DOES NOT map well onto SCA shires.  Maybe onto Kingdoms,
Principalities and administrative regions, though... <he said enticingly>
(:-)

	Tibor
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