Re: June Kingdom Returns (heraldry)

[Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>]

Poster: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>

          Could some of the Heralds (amateur or pro) explain to me how there
  is a conflict between the following charges?  

I can try (Golden Gryphon Pursuivant here).

The trouble with heralds is, however, that we nitpick.  Be ready.  (:-)
  
  >Azure, on a plate a lion rampany contourny purpure.
  >This is being returned for conflict with Azure, a plate charged with a
  >cauldron and a domestic cat in its curiosity sable.  Rhithyn yr Gwlad yr
  >Hav, SCA. There is a CD for the changes to the charges on the roundel but no
  >others.

          HUH?  By my calculations, there is more than two points of
  difference between the two devices.  Are my calculations wrong here?

Nitpick number one.  Heralds don't use "Points of Difference" anymore.  It's
old terminology, and has been discarded in favor of new terminology, the
Clear Visual Difference (CVD).  You probably *mean* them both the same way,
but since it represents a different way of thinking about things, many
heralds will care that the terms be used correctly.

=-=-=-=-=

You have "blue, a white circle and on it, some somethings".

Basically, the somethings are different, and that is one CVD. There is no
second difference.

Nitpick two: There are, at most (in essence) 3 layers to SCA Heraldry.  The
field (which may not exist) is layer one.  The primary charge, and
surrounding secondary charges are layer two.  Charges laid upon the primary
charge are layer three, and are called tertiary charges.

When comparing primary and secondary charges, any change between them makes
them different.  Position, shape, color, number, edge treatment... those are
sufficient.

For differences between tertiary charges, two differences are needed, and
more than two don't make any additional difference  In this case, there are
three differences: shape, number and color.  But they still add up to a
"difference in tertiary charge." One CVD.

You'd alluded to a "common sense" kind of ruling:
  And as a fighter, it passes my primary test, being able to tell the
  difference between the two shields from across the battlefield.

The College of Arms tries to avoid making judgement calls, as in "is this
visible enough".  It would make it hard to determine in advance if armory
has a decent chance of passing, or not.  It also means that people would
have more opportunities to rag on the heralds, because everything would
turn into a matter of opinion.

I agree: the two arms are visually rather distinct.  BUT: we still use two
CVDs of difference, and we in general call a change of tertiaries only one
difference: because otherwise the rules get complex.

Consider if, instead of a simple roundel, a complex primary charge like a
dragon rampant were used.  The sheer complexity of the external edge of the
primary charge would make the differences between one set of tertiaries and
another set much less apparent.  The rule as listed covers the vast majority
of cases, and makes their adjudication a simple matter of looking and
counting, as opposed to the complex matter of trying to guess what a large
and faceless crowd of commenting heralds MIGHT be thinking.

	Tibor
=======================================================================
List Archives, FAQ, FTP:  http://sca.wayfarer.org/merryrose/
            Submissions:  atlantia@atlantia.sca.org
        Admin. requests:  majordomo@atlantia.sca.org