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[Fwd: why do we....?]

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> I'm not quite sure I understand the question here -- an unnaceptable
> name (even if a part of it was acceptable) wouldn't be used as a
> holding name... a name has to be  'correct' along all parts of the
> name, and not just one or the other elements, holding names included.
> Returned five times before something is accepted?  That sounds a bit
> odd, actually, and far from the norm (at least from what I've seen).
> Most of the ones I know of in this area have gone through on their
> first time, and maybe one or two have been returned once, but I can't
> think of any recently around here with more than returns than that.  Or
> are you talking about being 'returned' by the local herald (so to
> speak) on account of obvious conflicts, tincture violations, and that
> sort of stuff?  If that's the case, that's not so much a return, in my
> eyes, as simply catching problems before they head up to Kingdom level.
> A good herald should work with the submitter, not just sit there and
> accept stuff as they are dropped in his/her hand. ;-)

For instance, if a name is submitted that has a first and 2 by-names and
only one by-name is unacceptable, why is the remaining portion not given as
a holding name until the person decides how to proceed with the submission?
Yes, for two I can name, THL Elspeth of Harilow is on her 8th submission and
Robert de Rath tried 6 times before his heraldry passed.  They failed at the
kingdom level (in Elspeth's case definitely- I can check with de Rath on

> Well, theoretically, they can, just not quite in the way you are
> thinking of.  I suppose that somebody, if they wanted, could send
> several differnt designs in at the same time to be registered, although
> it wouldn't fall on the same sort of 'numbered' preference you are
> referring to.

How?  I would like to do this as I have several similar but technically
different designs (same tinticure and charges in differing designs), and two
of them are favorites that I would like equally.

> Well, at this point I drift off onto personal feelings on the matter --
> firstly, that would create three to five times the work for the heralds
> at kingdom level, and I for one know Evan would start going just a
> little loopy on us if his workload increased by that much! ;-)
> Atlantia already is a very productive and busy kingdom by heraldic
> standards (and from my limited knowledge, one of the best, I'd say).

In that case, I would understand.  I do not know the paperwork involved and
would not want to be responsible for driving someone over the edge.  If it
would be that troublesome, I understand the system as it stands.

> Secondly, to me, that idea seems to go against the whole point of
> heraldry in the Society.  When one of my sumbitters submits something,
> I want it to be something they want, not just one of a grab bag of
> potential ideas that 'they could live with'.  Submitters who don't put
> a lot of thought into their submissions tend to have devices that down
> the road they discover they don't really like, or ignore, or change
> endlessly, making even more work for the heralds.  As the famous maxim
> goes, take your device, draw it out, and tape it to your bathroom
> mirror.  After a month, if you still like what you've been staring at
> every single day, then you should probably go with it.  Heraldry
> shouldn't be something people rush right into -- especially names.

Again, I agree.  However, in my case, I did not get my first choice, but my
seconds are still very enjoyable to me.  I only have one other choice for a
name right now, but my heraldry is another matter.  I love several of my
designs, and would not be vexed in the least if #3 passed over #1.

> And, it seems to me that a local herald should be able to help a lot in
> this regard.  If he knows what he's doing (and if he doesn't know the
> answer to a particular question, the correct answers are almost always
> just a quick email or phone call away) then a lot of the stuff you have
> talked about -- multiple devices in case some are returned, etc. can be
> minimized by conflict checking, reasonable knowledge of what charges
> are protected and why, that sort of stuff.  A local herald can't be
> expected to know *everything*, obviously, but they can help ensure a
> smooth procedure in which at least most all the obvious potential
> problems can be eliminated before the device evens heads out to
> Kingdom...

A herald, as you will agree cannot read the minds of his overlords.  Elspeth
had several returns because the herald told her a chaplet (or was it an
orlay?) of pansies proper would be fine, but the kingdom folks said that
recolored red they would look too much like roses (a protected charge) and
she couldn't have them.  The pansies were not protected and she had no
intention of changing the color, but....  In addition, a portion of my
original submission name was from a different country than the rest, but
done on purpose to fit my family line (an Irish man who met an Italian lass
during the war and took her home--for SCA, I made it the crusades).  For the
reasons I stated, my herald thought it would fly, but it was not so.  He had
seen it happen with other people in charge, but not hese ones.  I DON'T
blame my herald.



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