Re: Acknowledgement

["Susan and Frank Downs" <sfdowns@pinn.net>]

Poster: "Susan and Frank Downs" <sfdowns@pinn.net>

Your Grace,

Yes, I think we should take lighter blows.  I don't consider this lowering
the standard or bar in the way those terms are usually used because I don't
think it takes any less skill to do so; in fact I think it requires more
skill (yes, these are my thoughts. If you take them as less valuable because
I don't assert them as incontrovertible fact, that's up to you.  They are
not, however, weak.)

Yes, your phrasing was "threshhold for pain."  I hope my somewhat more
standard diction didn't confuse you.  I think you might mean tolerance for
pain.

I'm saying that offering boffer fighting as a substitute for heavy weapon
fighting for people who don't want to get hurt is disingenuous.

In my original letter I mentioned those who fight as an expression of a
particular period in history and those who view fighting as an art form.  If
it's important to you, I fall into these categories as I believe your
brother knights and dukes will attest.  It's dangerous to assume.  Evidence
seems to point to others valuing the things you mention more than I, and I
think in large measure I have given them up for what I view as a greater
good.

What has been created in my mind was engendered by your words.

Let me make this clear.  I do not want to hurt anyone (this is, in part, why
I would not take up boxing).  If everyone who does not want to get hurt
takes up boffer weapons, it greatly increases the likelihood that if I want
to be fight successfully, I will have to hurt people.  I view this as a very
bad thing.  I am taking issue with your words here your Grace, not your
person or your fighting. I never claimed that your fighting led to any
carnage. I have no reason to believe that you are anything but an honorable
fighter, but your words and the thoughts they express do damage to the art
that I have practiced for the past fifteen years.  They are wrecking my
game!

You say that fighting is not a savage bloodsport, then proudly proclaim that
most successful fighters have suffered broken bones.  You are proving my
point.  Since it matters to you, I have never broken a bone on the list
field (either my own or anyone else's), but I wear about seventy pounds of
armor.  Is this because I'm afraid of getting hurt?  No, it's my expression
of what's period.  I think most older fighters will attest that I've
sustained my share of injuries in the cause.

My solution, for more than a decade, has been to do my part and fight the
way I feel everyone should fight.  I have been told that I take too light,
and I try to explain my reasons for this.  My solution now is to write these
letters and hope the pendulum begins to swing the other way.

Other people have written me privately to say they agree with me.  This
whole thing started because someone from another kingdom claimed that
Atlantians were rhinohides.  It wasn't very honorably done, and you can deny
it and justify it all day, but there must be a reason that perception is out
there.

I will repeat that you and people like you set the standard.  You are a
former King of Atlantia, and in all likelihood will be again.  Many people
have written about how you've taught them.  If someone fights you and you
don't take one of their blows (and I'm speaking hypothetically, i don't
claim that this has ever really happened), they are likely to think "Duke
Logan didn't take that blow; it must not have been hard enough; I'll have to
hit harder next time.  To some extent we all set the standard (hence my
little part), but if people like you don't set the standard, who do you
think does?

All rights are conditional.  I teach this to ninth graders.  You only have
the right to breathe for as long as you can.

You give away your own bet.  You admit that your standards are different in
a melee.  I never said that you or I take harder blows in melees, just that
it's harder to get our attention.  The honorable response is to take lighter
blows, and I commend you for it, but you prove my point.

Again, I have no intention of insulting your person or your fighting.  I
will reiterate that you and people like you _do_ set the standards, and what
is sad is that you don't know it and continue to hold the attitudes that
your words express.  I have never, and will never, claim that you are a
dishonorable fighter.  That would be an insult to my own honor, and I am not
so much of an idiot as to not know that.

One of the points that I have been trying to make is that we all fight for
fun, and it's more fun if more people can play, and it's more fun if we do
our utmost to see that as few people as possible get hurt.  It would be my
pleasure to meet you on any list field where we're both in attendance.  I
will still feel the same way, because it is your words that I'm responding
to, not your fighting.  I plan to be at Ice Castle.

In service,

Takenoshita Naro (m.k.a. Frank Downs)

----------
>From: Logan and/or Arielle <sirlogan@mail.clt.bellsouth.net>
>To: Susan and Frank Downs <sfdowns@pinn.net>
>Subject: Re: Acknowledgement
>Date: Tue, Feb 9, 1999, 10:29 PM
>

>I have to take this one statement by statement.  I do this publicly
>because that is how I was brought into it.
>
>Susan and Frank Downs wrote:
>
>> Your Grace,
>>
>> What on earth do you mean by "lowering the standard?"  When have I
>> said anything about "lowering the standard?"
>
>Lowering the standard very simply means lowering the level of force that
>is required for a blow to be counted as "telling".  You complained that
>the blow level was too high with your claim of the "injurious
>consequences" of throwing a hard blow.
>
>> What I'm saying is that victory on the list should be a matter of
>> skill at arms rather than "threshhold of pain."
>
>It is a matter of skill at arms and has never been one of a threshold of
>pain.  Those fights that are not won by skill are usually referred to as
>"bop till ya drop" fights and I would not participate in one because of
>their shear stupidity.  I have never suggested that victory be based on
>anything but skill at arms.  Skill at arms does not imply that we can go
>to tapping one another and calling it good either.  It has to do with
>technique, athleticism, innovation, speed, quickness, etc.  This is,
>after all,  a contact sport.
>
>> Because you think of fighting as a sport, you seem to make no
>> distinction between boffer weapons and heavy fighting.  Everyone gets
>> a chance to play, if only for the J.V.  That's absurd on the face of
>> it.  People don't make steel plate armor to fight with boffer weapons,
>> and when's the next boffer crown or Emerald Joust?  Who's the latest
>> boffer knight?  We don't confer anything like the prestige of heavy
>> weapons on boffer weapons.
>
>You are ignoring the fact that I only offered boffer as an alternative
>to heavy fighting for those that do not wish to get hurt (or have a low
>threshold for pain, a statement that you really need to examine more
>closely).  What I said specifically was that if a person wishes to
>participate in combat, AND, has a low threshold for pain, OR, simply
>does not wish to ever get hurt, THEN, they should look into boffer (i.e.
>make a "pain free" weapon).  Apparently you are one, judging by what you
>seem to feel is important, that fights for glory, prestige, or accolades
>such as the Throne, Knighthood, or the tourney prize.  I can only assume
>this because of the criteria that you have established for comparing the
>two types of combat.
>
>> Your pretending that we do, along with your vague cries of "lowering
>> the standard," and telling people that if they can't match your
>> "threshhold for pain" or "don't want to get hurt" they should get out
>> are what I'm condemning as elitist.
>
>I do not pretend anything and never once eluded to boffer weapons and
>heavy weapons being in the same class for anything except the ability to
>participate in combat.  This comparison was one created in your mind.
>Again, this is a violent contact sport by it's design (last time I
>checked we were trying to hit people with sticks).  It certainly is not
>a maliciously violent sport, but violent nonetheless.  And, I stand
>firmly behind my statements of "if you don't want to get hurt" or you
>have "a low threshold for pain" (my actual words not your rendition of
>them, which is absurd) then you shouldn't participate in heavy fighting.
>Getting hit by a stick hurts, sometimes a lot. It hurts in Atlantia, it
>hurts in Trimaris, it hurts in Meridies, it hurts in the East, etc. I
>know, I've fought in many different kingdoms and it hurt to get hit by a
>stick in all of them.
>
>> It's also what I was referring to as "might makes right."  What I
>> would like to get through to you is that I know the risks I take when
>> I fight, but I don't want people like you making me have to risk
>> injuring someone else in order to fight successfully.
>
>You contradict yourself by stating that you "know the risks" but don't
>want "people like you making me risk injuring someone else".  Do not
>forget that the risk of injury is inherent and that we do sign waivers
>stating our willingness to take that risk.  I happen to be quite
>successful on the field.  I do so without causing this great carnage
>that you claim I do.  Besides, by your own admission, you have never
>fought me and barely even know me so how would you know?
>
>> You're wrecking my game by turning it into a savage bloodsport.
>
>Telling an ex boxer that SCA fighting is a savage bloodsport is not
>going to get you very far.  How savage is it?  How many serious injuries
>have YOU sustained?  Have you seen my list of injuries?  This is the
>price most successful fighters have paid.  I would be willing to bet
>that there is not a single ex Monarch in this kingdom that has not
>suffered a broken bone as a result of SCA fighting and probably very few
>Knights.  How many of your bones have you broken in this "savage
>bloodsport"?  I wonder.
>
>> That's the problem I see in fighting.  If this is simply my point of
>> view, then you can just write me off as a crackpot, but I'm pretty
>> sure that's not the case, so I think it's a real problem.
>
>You are "pretty sure" so you "think".  Again that is not a very strong
>argument.  In fact, you are the only person I have ever heard say that
>our game is such a violent destroyer of humanity.  If you feel that
>there needs to be a drastic change in the rules and standards (of which
>I did not create but you blame me for) then by all means please offer a
>solution.  If it makes sense then the masses that agree with you will
>rally behind it and the rules will be changed.  Until then, I will
>continue to compete, fight hard, have fun and follow the rules.
>
>>
>> Of course people have a right to fight, they just have to authorize,
>> which, in the past, just about anyone could do, with enough
>> determination.
>
>They have a right to fight "IF"?  Do you also have a right to drive a
>car?  The answer to both is no.  Determination alone will not get
>someone authorized.  If that is happening then we have another problem.
>A person must meet certain standards in order to get an authorization
>card.  Such as; being a paid member, having some knowledge of the rules,
>being able to defend themselves, being able to throw a telling blow,
>etc.  Just as a person must take a test to get a driver's license.  In
>this state if you have any failing grades, they won't let you take the
>test to try to get that license.
>
>> You talk about throwing a "telling blow," but the point you seem to be
>> missing, or willfully overlooking is that your "telling blow" may well
>> be, and probably is, different from my "telling blow."
>
>Never missed the point.  I have known of the differences for many
>years.  And, there really is not that much of a difference between your
>"telling blow" and mine.  I am willing to bet that they both fall into
>that range of what is, better than light and higher. That is the range
>of a telling blow. But, again, you have never fought me so you wouldn't
>know.
>
>> Furthermore, I am willing to bet that both of them vary,
>> unintentionally of course, depending on circumstances.  In the heat of
>> a melee it probably takes more to get either of our attention than in
>> a leisurely bout with a new fighter.  I'm not saying that either of us
>> is "cheating," simply that we're in different mindsets which alter our
>> perceptions.
>
>I would be willing to bet that, for myself, you are wrong.  In fact I am
>easier to kill in melee than in a single bout.  Just ask anyone who has
>ever been in a group chasing me when I have tripped up, fallen, and
>called myself dead.  I have had to argue with both pursuers and marshals
>alike when they have told me to get up and go ahead and fight.  But,
>again, you have never fought me so you wouldn't know.
>
>>
>>
>> The sad fact is that you, and people like you, do set the standards.
>
>I bet that there are those that would take exception to your insult of
>me.  To YOU that is a sad fact.  A sad fact behind a weak and unfounded
>argument.
>
>
>The simple fact that I was trying very hard to get across was that there
>really is not that much of a difference between Atlantian fighters and
>those from other kingdoms.  I offered that when all Atlantian fighters
>were labeled as "rhinos".
>
>The second point was to counter an argument that we need to drastically
>lower our acknowledgment levels (the standard) in order for those that
>do not fight because they don't want to get hurt (I read pain) to have
>the opportunity to fight.  If that is what they wish to do, I offer
>boffer weapons as an alternative.  I also stated that I would not
>support the lowering of, what I believe, an acceptable standard.  I have
>met fighters on the field that have actually said "I take a very light
>shot".  I applaud them as long as they understand that they still need
>to deliver a telling blow.
>
>Frank, you need to understand that I fight for fun.  I do not care how
>we structure the fighting as long as we stay within a standard. I
>believe that I am well inside that standard.  I charge you to seek me
>out at an event and fight with me.  I do not believe that I know who you
>are or would recognize you.  Do this and then report back as to how
>brutal I was and how injurious I have made the sport of SCA combat.  If
>you still feel the same way that you do now, after we fight, then
>perhaps we should talk about what can be done to close this apparently
>wide gap.
>
>
>Duke Logan
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Vis,  Fortitudo, Prudentia
>_____________________________________________________________
>"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf
>is the Pack."
>-Rudyard Kipling
>
>
>
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