Re: Cloved Fruit Rant...be warned...

[Heather Swann <heather@pop.net>]

Poster: Heather Swann <heather@pop.net>

Brenna wrote:

>  I've heard the argument that, "...it's the option of the lady to do
> with the
>
>> fruit as she wishes.  So there is no real harm in it."  This is
>> ludicrous.
>> What if the lady does not know it is ok to refuse the fruit?  What
>> if it is
>> her first event and she thinks that if a person gives her a cloved
>> fruit,
>> she is *supposed* to give him a kiss?  Is that honourable?
>
> No, it's not, but the rules that I was taught didn't involve refusing
> the fruit.  The choice was that you either bit the clove or removed it
> with your fingers and the gentleman kissed your hand.  Is this not
> practiced everywhere?  I never found the hand kissing part offensive
> any more than I find the teasing of certain rakes offensive.  The
> gentlemen (yes, including our esteemed rakes) have never been
> forceful, pushy, rude, or in any way uncomplimentary of the ladies of
> the barony.  I simply cannot imagine any different within the confines
> of the society.

I was always taught that the lady had the control in the situation and
could offer her hand to be kissed, or even just thank whoever presented
her with the fruit for the courtesy with a a gracious curtsy.  If it's
someone's first event, that means they have the best reason in the world
to stop and ask what this cloved fruit thing is all about.

>>  What does that then say about the regard for the lady's lord?  Not
>> much, no
>> matter how you try to obfuscate the situation.
>
> If the intention is that she has to kiss him, it would be presumptuous
> and rude.  My lord has no problem with my taking the fruit and pulling
> a clove with my fingers.  As long as the gentlemen do not pursue a
> lady when they are obviously unwanted, I personally see no real danger
> in an innocent flirtation or compliment.

Actually, all it means is that his lady's beauty attracts all manner of
worship, and he should be proud, and do his lady the courtesy of backing
up her choice in how to handle the situation.

>> I personally will not participate in this practice that is degrading
>> to
>> women and ignores any type of moral ideals.
>
> That is understandable.  Many people chose not to play.  Usually, when
> a person makes it clear that they are not interested, they are not
> bothered.  And, it is common (at least when I have seen the game
> played) for a lady to end up with the fruit and not want to offer it
> for fear that the recipient will ask for a kiss she does not want to
> give.  In cases like that, she usually leaves the fruit on a table
> where someone else picks it up with no string attached to the lady.
>
> Brenna

I don't see how it degrades women or is immoral.....that escapes me.
Frankly, I just see it as I do all other sorts of Victorian-style
kissing games.  Do kisses under mistletoe upset you equally?  Besides,
what of the lord who is offered a fruit but has no desire to kiss the
lady who has offered it?  Is it equally degrading to him in your eyes?
I would think he has the equal opportunity to kiss the lady's hand or
just thank her for the courtesy.

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that this cloved fruit
business is just a Victorian-style ice-breaking sort of kissing game,
and like any game you can refuse to play.

Miri

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