Re: Discuss: Heraldry question (Long!)

[damont@widomaker.com (Dave Montuori)]

My two... (Evan rummages in his pouch, pulls out a random brace of coins,
tries to figure out what he's got) ... er, centiclams, for lack of a better
term. Um, Sappy, could you come here a moment? I might need you. (Sappy
waddles over from the Rialto and waits in the kitchen.)

(Much has been snipped from each posting.)
Sean MacKay <Michael_Ford@notesgw.hns.com> said:

>[Landi] stated that he uses the title ["The Honorable Lord..."] 
>since it annoys the heralds saying it isn't done in Atlantia.  I know that 
>the title is not given in this Kingdom and believe it is a western thing 
>(West, Caid and An Tir I believe and maybe a couple of others).

Actually I think it's an "Atenveldt Heresy" thing. (This refers to the 
pseudo-religious division of the SCA into Western Rite, Eastern Rite and 
Atenveldt Heresy; ALWAYS intended humorously when used by myself.) No one 
I know from the West Coast kingdoms uses it; the only kingdoms I know for 
certain that use it are Meridies and Trimaris, both Aten descendants.

>Just because Atlantia does not give this title does that mean that I 
>as a herald do not use this honorific to introduce him on the tourney field or 
>in court?

To this Mordrea <angela@ascc01.ascc.att.com> replied:

>THL or The Honourable Lord is the correct form of greeting for one who 
>has been Granted Arms.

In some kingdoms, that is the *custom.*  As noted by others, this is 
not the custom in Atlantia.

My general rule is: use the customs of the kingdom with jurisdiction over 
the court/tourney/etc. So in Atlantia I would not announce "The Honorable 
Lord/Lady X..." but in Meridies I would.

Eoghann mac Ailpein <grb@fns.com> said:

>At Ymir this year then King Cuan grant 2 gentles arms.  One of them, 
>Falcone, was deeply honored.  The grant of arms is the only award or 
>grant that he has ever gotten.  

Way to go, Falcone. Were you Erica'd? (Regional slang; means being called 
into court to get an AoA, only to have the crown promote it to a Grant on
the spot.)

>If I were talking directly to the person I would say "lord/lady whatever" 
>but... indirectly I would say "The Honourable Lord/Lady..."  

Informally, the usage is fine. I would not use "THL" officially.

So Falcone <polearmed@worldnet.att.net> reports conversing with Herveus:

>The two rights conferred here are: the right to wear a livery collar; 
>accelerated consideration in the Order of Precedence....

>...use of those other conventions [is discouraged] in the Kingdom.  Yet, he 
>didn't object to my name being listed in another kingdom's publication, with 
>the "THL", when it was done so without my immediate knowledge.

Whatever floats each Kingdom's boats... (ducking a thrown wooden spoon)

Giacomo <James.Toscano@den.mmc.com>, who has a GoA, chimed in:

>I was once informed by Herald that the title was not proper because it 
>was not period. He stipulated that I must not use it.

"The Honorable Lord/Lady" is not regulated per se by Corpora, so 
should you use it, that's your business. (More on that later.)

Just don't expect it to be used formally around here.

Master Herveus, Triton Principal Herald <herveus@access.digex.net>,
discoursed on the topic at hand.

>I do not recall stipulating that [Giacomo] must not use the style; if my 
>words were so interpreted, I hope this clarifies them.

I hope I have gotten the essence of this correct a few paragraphs back.

>I am disturbed by the argument that, since we already do so many non-period
>things, one more won't hurt. This is wrong.

I concur. Introducing traditions from other Kingdoms should be done 
carefully, and we should generally avoid those that are not period.

Giacomo replies to Herveus:
>In only one little thing do I disagree the Crowns are the authority. 
>If our Queen says its so then it is.

That is a very Atenveldt-Heresy tradition, which makes it no less valid 
than the Eastern-Rite ones more common in Atlantia, nor any more valid.

Tibor of Rock Valley <schuldy@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU> then said:

>I tried to teach [recent recipient of Court Barony + GoA] everything about 
>it, that I knew.  One of the most important things I could transmit, is 
>that neither award is at all period.... A full answer to most questions 
>really requires telling someone about the Societal Cultural answer, and 
>about the Real History answer.

Huzzah! I wish I remembered this more myself.

Landi <hlf@holmes.acc.Virginia.EDU>, who started all this, added:
 
>Indeed.  I do believe that Muirgen once commented on this subject that
>she gave the title _expecting_ it to be used...

It usually takes longer than one reign to instill a custom. Sometimes
circumstance dictates a LOT longer than one reign.

Alisoun MacCoul <SILVERDRAGON@Charleston.Net> pops in with:

>> If our Queen says its so then it is.  This is saving only the Laws of the 
>>US, local laws and Corpora.  Welcome to the Monarchy baby, its our game we 
>>chose it.

>But the point Herveus made, as did I, is that this is NOT an accepted title 
>per Corpora.... Corpora specifically puts the heralds in charge of 
>determining which titles are licit for use in the Society.

>"4. Styles and Unrecognized Titles. Names and terms that imply
>relationships between Society members (such as apprentice, page, squire,
>etc.) or that carry vocational connotations (religious, military, scholarly,
>etc.) may be used in the Society on an informal basis, subject to the
>following restrictions:

>    a. They must not assert or imply noble rank or territorial jurisdiction. 
>    b. They must not be offensive in themselves or in the context in 
>       which they are used.
>    c. They may carry no precedence and must not be used in any manner 
>       which would suggest that they do so."

>[Appendix C] also specifically defines the titles of Lord and Lady as 
>"Basic titles for persons who hold Arms by Award or Grant."  Thus the use of 
>the simple title of "Lord" or "Lady" for those who bear arms by grant is in 
>fact decreed by Corpora.
 
Corpora says it's the *basic* title. It is silent on whether embellishments 
are allowed or not. As a modified version of "Lord/Lady" I would argue that 
"Honorable Lord/Lady" IS allowed at the discretion of kingdom law or custom, 
subject to Laurel Sovereign rulings, and that section 4 is not applicable.

However - I would also argue that "Honorable Lord/Lady" is usable by any 
gentle with an *Award* of Arms, should they choose to use it, unless the 
local Kingdom law forbid it. Thus I (with just an AoA) could style myself 
"THL Evan." I don't, for many reasons including that it's non-historic. 
And no *WAY* would I think of trying it further south - that sort of 
feather ruffling isn't for me.

In the unlikely event I get "promoted" in the future, I would probably 
not use "THL" even should I move to a Kingdom that likes it, but would 
not complain if 'twere used on me formally.

Which brings me to Alanna <rjwelenc@erols.com>, who asks:

>What does a herald do about unfamiliar titles? [Example...] a gentle that 
>I do not recognize comes to me with court business.  He tells me that he 
>is a Companion of the Purple Kumquat and as such should be called into 
>court as The Most Noble Purple Kumquat, Lord Thusandsuch.  

Myself, I think I'd translate it into Atlantian court grammar (what an 
odd concept)... assuming AoA <= his rank < Peerage, I'd say "Lord 
Thusandsuch, Companion of the Purple Kumquat." I would also indicate what 
kingdom the gentle is from, which does require that I gather that info.

>If the gentle is really an Atlantian and is playing a joke,

then we'll tell stories about it afterwards, here at the Merry Rose.

(Thanks Sappy. Here's a bag of soap chips.)

Evan da Collaureo, Kraken Herald, Stierbach Pursuivant
Head Octopus, TCG/SSSS/NACCC
Summer e-mail address: damont@widomaker.com
Pay no attention to that hacker behind the curtain!

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